WTF... heatercores are made of brass inside

PetDMC · 11-21-2002, 03:29 PM

well i was wondering what the channels were made of... and to my surprise, it's brass?!?:eeek: but the fins are copper

i did some searching (google

) here's some links to prove my point

#1

this is a really good read...
linky

this is kinda of a shock to me since i thought they're made of copper

sorry if some of you know this already, but i would have never figured it.

bigben2k · 11-21-2002, 03:47 PM

The type of brass used is 70% copper.

Nice link!

myv65 · 11-21-2002, 05:28 PM

Pretty much all brass is 70% copper. It's the remaining stuff that differentiates among "breeds". And pretty much all brass has comparitively lousy heat transfer (at least compared to aluminum and copper). But don't sweat it. Heat transfer is more than simple conductivity. Wall thickness also plays an integral role. On the upshot, brass has better anti-corrosive properties than aluminum. In the end, you need to either find a manufacturer's data sheet on performance or try it out for yourself. It may not be so bad after all.

Roscal · 11-21-2002, 05:45 PM

All rad with channels as BM or all BI family (BIPRO, BIX,..) are made with brass (tanks too only fins are copper). Copper is a very mallable metal and cannot be used for rigid support structures in radiators but only for fins to provide good thermal transfer..
You'd need a thick tube (1mm) to make channels in copper as those heat exchangers used in refrigeration units (Rad Cube)

Brass makes it rigid enough to hold the core structure but it is thin enough to efficiently conduct the heat to the copper fins, thickness of these channels is 0.05 to 0.07mm (BI family) so thermal transfer is very very quick between channels and copper fins. And there's no problem at all

Voodoo Rufus · 11-21-2002, 08:27 PM

So how would a full aluminum car radiator compare to a heater core, since it's brass/copper? Seems that all the best car rads out there are Al.

8-Ball · 11-22-2002, 04:40 AM

To be honest, I think almost all of the radiators are aluminium.

This is because they are big, and copper's density is 8920Kg/m3 compared to ALuminium of 2700Kg/m3.

That would add a lot of weight to the front of the car.

nemaste · 11-22-2002, 05:31 PM

most cores are brass for mainly cost reasons. have you compared costs between Al to brass/CU radiators? if you use a '94 RX-7 radiator, a C&R Al rad is $600 new, & a stock brass/CU one is ~$190 brand new. of course, racers use Al because it works better on their cars. this is not to say that you would see similar differences using Al radiators on a PC, since your PC isn't generating 250F water temperature (a reasonable assumption i believe).

this is similar to the the Al vs steel case argument. you know what Al case ppl say about lower temps, but i read that someone did thermal calculations & found it would take temperatures that make the Al case glow white before a 3-4C difference is realized.

Voodoo Rufus · 11-22-2002, 06:17 PM

So it's more of a condition on the quality and construction of the radiator and less of the materials used that determines performance, and for PC purposes the effects are negligible almost?

The only reason I'd buy an Aluminum case is because they look so cool and are lighter, not for temp reasons. My Chenbro Junior is pretty hefty with water cooling inside.

bigben2k · 11-23-2002, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nemaste
most cores are brass for mainly cost reasons. have you compared costs between Al to brass/CU radiators? if you use a '94 RX-7 radiator, a C&R Al rad is $600 new, & a stock brass/CU one is ~$190 brand new. of course, racers use Al because it works better on their cars. this is not to say that you would see similar differences using Al radiators on a PC, since your PC isn't generating 250F water temperature (a reasonable assumption i believe).

Actually, I like to believe that the newer Aluminium engine block parts dictate a preference for Aluminium, but hey, that's probably just me...

Can O' Beans · 11-23-2002, 11:34 PM

I knew the end caps of the heatercores were brass, but never knew about the channels themselves.

I guess it doesn't matter as even with the brass, they're real good performers for PC watercooling.

redleader · 11-24-2002, 01:44 PM

Copper is very soft stuff. In order to make those channels Cu, they'd have to be very thick. By using brass they can make them much thinner. This means more airflow and thless material between the air and water.

MadDogMe · 11-25-2002, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Copper is very soft stuff. In order to make those channels Cu, they'd have to be very thick. By using brass they can make them much thinner. This means more airflow and thless material between the air and water.

They could always make a rigid frame to put the Cu 'tubes' in, could make it of brass if they want...

Cheap Bastids ain't they?...

redleader · 11-25-2002, 04:35 PM

With good brass you're still getting over 100w/mk. Copper is under 400. So you could make it of Cu, but it would have to be thicker. Make it much thicker and its not going to conduct much, if any better. Plus you've got the space wasted by the brass supports that could have been used for fins.

Voodoo Rufus · 11-27-2002, 04:56 PM

Ok, on the Blackice Extreme, it says the tubes are copper (via Danger Den's site), as well as the fins.

So what's the difference in thermal conductivity between brass and copper?

Would the Dtek Customs heater core (and it's variations) be better or worse than the BIX if the tubes are copper as listed?

Anyone done any temp testing on these?

redleader · 11-27-2002, 09:36 PM

Quote:

So what's the difference in thermal conductivity between brass and copper?

Read the post before yours.

Quote:

Would the Dtek Customs heater core (and it's variations) be better or worse than the BIX if the tubes are copper as listed?

They're better performing already, so how does it matter?

Quote:

Anyone done any temp testing on these?

www.procooling.com

Also, although Detk does sell a heatercore, they did not invent the heatercore nor are they even the first company to sell it. Its probably better to just say heatercore (since there are better ones then the DTek anyway).

Voodoo Rufus · 11-30-2002, 05:23 PM

Ok, I guess it's obvious that I'm a noob to these forums and I better pay more attention to the main page of the site. Sorry.

11-21-2002, 03:47 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	The type of brass used is 70% copper. Nice link! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

11-22-2002, 05:31 PM	#7
nemaste Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: CA Posts: 78	most cores are brass for mainly cost reasons. have you compared costs between Al to brass/CU radiators? if you use a '94 RX-7 radiator, a C&R Al rad is $600 new, & a stock brass/CU one is ~$190 brand new. of course, racers use Al because it works better on their cars. this is not to say that you would see similar differences using Al radiators on a PC, since your PC isn't generating 250F water temperature (a reasonable assumption i believe). this is similar to the the Al vs steel case argument. you know what Al case ppl say about lower temps, but i read that someone did thermal calculations & found it would take temperatures that make the Al case glow white before a 3-4C difference is realized. __________________ StrongShockModz

11-21-2002, 03:29 PM	#1
PetDMC Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 109	WTF... heatercores are made of brass inside well i was wondering what the channels were made of... and to my surprise, it's brass?!?:eeek: but the fins are copper i did some searching (google ) here's some links to prove my point #1 this is a really good read... linky this is kinda of a shock to me since i thought they're made of copper sorry if some of you know this already, but i would have never figured it.

11-21-2002, 05:28 PM	#3
myv65 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: home Posts: 365	Pretty much all brass is 70% copper. It's the remaining stuff that differentiates among "breeds". And pretty much all brass has comparitively lousy heat transfer (at least compared to aluminum and copper). But don't sweat it. Heat transfer is more than simple conductivity. Wall thickness also plays an integral role. On the upshot, brass has better anti-corrosive properties than aluminum. In the end, you need to either find a manufacturer's data sheet on performance or try it out for yourself. It may not be so bad after all.

11-21-2002, 05:45 PM	#4
Roscal Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: North of France Posts: 198	All rad with channels as BM or all BI family (BIPRO, BIX,..) are made with brass (tanks too only fins are copper). Copper is a very mallable metal and cannot be used for rigid support structures in radiators but only for fins to provide good thermal transfer.. You'd need a thick tube (1mm) to make channels in copper as those heat exchangers used in refrigeration units (Rad Cube) Brass makes it rigid enough to hold the core structure but it is thin enough to efficiently conduct the heat to the copper fins, thickness of these channels is 0.05 to 0.07mm (BI family) so thermal transfer is very very quick between channels and copper fins. And there's no problem at all

11-21-2002, 08:27 PM	#5
Voodoo Rufus Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollister, CA Posts: 44	So how would a full aluminum car radiator compare to a heater core, since it's brass/copper? Seems that all the best car rads out there are Al.

11-22-2002, 04:40 AM	#6
8-Ball Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oxford University, UK Posts: 452	To be honest, I think almost all of the radiators are aluminium. This is because they are big, and copper's density is 8920Kg/m3 compared to ALuminium of 2700Kg/m3. That would add a lot of weight to the front of the car.

11-22-2002, 06:17 PM	#8
Voodoo Rufus Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollister, CA Posts: 44	So it's more of a condition on the quality and construction of the radiator and less of the materials used that determines performance, and for PC purposes the effects are negligible almost? The only reason I'd buy an Aluminum case is because they look so cool and are lighter, not for temp reasons. My Chenbro Junior is pretty hefty with water cooling inside.

11-23-2002, 11:34 PM	#10
Can O' Beans Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Pa - USA Posts: 264	I knew the end caps of the heatercores were brass, but never knew about the channels themselves. I guess it doesn't matter as even with the brass, they're real good performers for PC watercooling.

11-24-2002, 01:44 PM	#11
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Copper is very soft stuff. In order to make those channels Cu, they'd have to be very thick. By using brass they can make them much thinner. This means more airflow and thless material between the air and water.

11-25-2002, 04:35 PM	#13
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	With good brass you're still getting over 100w/mk. Copper is under 400. So you could make it of Cu, but it would have to be thicker. Make it much thicker and its not going to conduct much, if any better. Plus you've got the space wasted by the brass supports that could have been used for fins.

11-27-2002, 04:56 PM	#14
Voodoo Rufus Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollister, CA Posts: 44	Ok, on the Blackice Extreme, it says the tubes are copper (via Danger Den's site), as well as the fins. So what's the difference in thermal conductivity between brass and copper? Would the Dtek Customs heater core (and it's variations) be better or worse than the BIX if the tubes are copper as listed? Anyone done any temp testing on these?

11-30-2002, 05:23 PM	#16
Voodoo Rufus Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollister, CA Posts: 44	Ok, I guess it's obvious that I'm a noob to these forums and I better pay more attention to the main page of the site. Sorry.

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