Going for utter silence

[Gerwin]

Looking at this:
http://www.low-noise.de/forum/upload/ct100/
got me thinking:
Say I get myself a watercooled psu. Everything else is watercooled where possible: cpu, harddisks, videocard, northbridge even. My case is a Noisecontrol miditower completely lined with sound deadening material.
I'd really like to go fanless, but with a completely isolated case and such minimal ventilation, I'm afraid other vital parts, like memory, voltage regulators and such, will slowly but surely heat up to er, death.
Who has any ideas on how to keep these parts cool with as little noise as possible. Anything is welcome, from fans (yuck ) to nuclear cooling. I went this far, I might as well go the whole way. Please brainwave, I know it's a luxury problem, but I really want this.
For pictures of my existing system:
www.xs4all.nl/~philippo

[gmat]

One solution would be to change the case itself.
Get a lian li for example, and since the only 'noisy' part left will be the hard disks, insulate them (and only them) and insert a waterblock to keep them cool.
For memory and other 'hot' components, make sure you get good passive dissipation -> heatsinks where possible, and good air exposition (through carefully placed vents).

[bigben2k]

It becomes a cost issue: a small quiet undervolted fan will fare better than anything else you can find. A blower might be what you're looking for.

There is still a need to run a fan in a rig, for the reason you mentionned.

But if you still want to watercool the PSU, that's fine! Just be aware of the heatload, the required radiator, and the space for it...

[airspirit]

This is an easy AND a hard task.

First off, there is no such thing as a perfectly silent PC. Your HDD makes noise, your optical drives, even your mosfets if you are attuned to that sort of thing (I can hear them buzzing ... my wife can't). The trick will be in removing heat.

First, there are fans that are nearly silent. Look at the Panaflo L model 120 mm fans. Those are so silent that you can't hear them from over a foot. If one was set up to blow over your innards (PCI/AGP cards, mobo) and vent out the back in a sound-deadening case, you wouldn't hear it. At any rate, the HDD would drown it out even if you COULD. My recommendation is this: Make one port on the top of your case blowing in, and one port in the front bottom of your case blowing in, and have an opening on the back by your cards for the air to escape through. This would aspirate all the doo-dads on your board so your components don't fry. It takes a very OPEN case to cool these without airflow. With an insulated case, you'll just have to deal with it, though if you run your fans at 7V they will be inaudible even with your head against them.

There are also kits (boxes) to put your HDDs in to quiet them up substantially. I don't remember where they can be found, but that will take care of the biggest source of noise left once internal aspiration is taken care of.

Naturally, you'll want your CPU, NB, and GPU watercooled. Additionally, read up on watercooling your PSU. Some can be done relatively easily, and some are extremely difficult. This may be something that you want to air cool with low noise fans (Panaflo Ls). That's up to you.

Make sure your RAM has heat spreaders on them. Since airflow will be severly borked, they need to spread heat as well as possible. Similarly, you will want a decent sink on your southbridge. Even though they don't put off too much heat, you don't want to take chances.

Parting it out, you will need the following:

1xCPU block
1xGPU block & ramsinks (important!)
1xNB block & SB heatsink (important!)
2xPanaflo "L" 120mm fans (add pots if you wish)
1xCustom block for your PSU (some HDD blocks work for this ... read up)
NxRamsinks (VERY IMPORTANT!!!)
1xMassive radiator (for external passive cooling ... you can't internalize this system)
1xQuiet Pump (there is a pump thread somewhere in here with suggestions)
1xLarge External Res (allows coolant normalization from temp spikes, since the rad isn't working at max efficiency)
NxHDD silencing boxes

Setup an external cooling system however you see fit, keeping the pump/rad/res outside of the case. You can probably build manifolds or whatnot inside your case for the various blocks, but keep all obstruction to a minimal, since you want to capitalize on as much airflow as possible. The res should be at least 1 gallon in size to help normalize temps after the blocks and to aid in filling this thing (you will NEED it in an external system). The rad should be as big as you can find ... a Lytron 6320 can be snagged from EBay for not much anymore, but they are 2x1 FEET in size, but should be able to handle your system as described fine without fans if it is in an open area (I.E. not against a wall or something). Your pump should have at least 200 GPH @ 10 feet of head to handle the blocks and the rad if you use that rad.

Put all that together, and you will have an inaudible system that will be very reliable.

[Bignuts]

I am currently running my first phase of a low noise computer attempt.

I originally opted for the Panaflow 120mm M1A's, and they were far too noisy (and I had two of them in my system, one blowing on the Danger Den Cooling cube, the other shrouded and pulling air through the radiator).

So I decided to go with a single Panaflow 120mm L1A pulling air through the radiator, and the air is now ducted through a gutted CDRom drive, so the radiator doesn't get warm case air fed to it.( http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=5188 )

But I CAN hear the fan at 12V, it is the loudest component in my system. And I can hear it plainly anywhere in my room.

If you plan on going this route, make sure to get a fan speed contoller, or make one yourself, as the noise from these fans is greatly diminished at 7V.

On a side note, by far the quietest, easiest to aquire fan I have found at 12V is the Panaflow 80mm L1A, though at 7V the fan can start to make a "clicking" noise, but at slightly higher voltages this noise goes away.

[gmat]

Okay people go to the link Gerwin posted and take a look. HDDs won't make noise in that kind of box. And the guy runs with zero fan.
BladeRunner is running with zero fan as well. He's been running that way for a long time now, without any trouble.
So let's get serious. The way to get a truly silent system is NOT to add fans... This is not even an option.
To add some fuel to this, my own system is running with ZERO airflow on the mobo side (i've got a YY cube). That means, zero fan on mobo, RAM, mosfets etc.. The mobo side is at 36°C under load, and 34°C idle. Everything is quite warm, but not burning hot.
South bridge is not hot (NVidia MCP), and RAM isn't as well - Corsair sticks come with heat spreaders installed.
The point is, my mobo side is exposed to ambient air, and convection works well. Some kind of chimney would help a lot indeed.
I've been touching capacitors and mosfets on the mobo - no hot component there.
Now i'm planning to buy a HDD waterblock, since my SCSI disks are the hottest components in my case, and they got small airflow from the PSU (running reverted) and the rad (blowing in the case, HDD side).

In brief: no you don't need any fan. But proper planning and thinking, on how convection can work its best in your system. In my opinion, an insulated case with a silent system is not a good idea. Just insulate HDDs like in the link you posted.

[redleader]

You don't need a fan but even a 7 volted L1A would make a pretty big difference, if only in peace of mind. Not like he could hear it anyway in an insulated case.

I'd say water cool all you can except the power supply. Put a low speed fan in it. This can also double as your case fan. At this point any disk but a CudaV is gonna be louder then the fan anyway. Finally move the case a few feet away from your desk. That should be pretty damn silent.

[nicozeg]

Look at the Panaflo L model 120 mm fans. Those are so silent that you can't hear them from over a foot.

Sound perception is very tricky. The silent you go, more background noises you start to hear. Your statment tell me that you're in a noisy ambient.

Make one port on the top of your case blowing in

With undervolted fans you don't want to fight against natural convection, but work with it. The highest point should have exhausts.

Maybe in a highly isolated case, an undervolted centrifugal fan could be more efficient. Those generate a lot more pressure than axial ones, and thats needed to move air through small vents.

[Gerwin]

Originally posted by bigben2k
There is still a need to run a fan in a rig, for the reason you mentionned.

I know (deep inside), and I hate that

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by gmat
BladeRunner is running with zero fan as well. He's been running that way for a long time now, without any trouble.
So let's get serious. The way to get a truly silent system is NOT to add fans... This is not even an option.

To add some fuel to this, my own system is running with ZERO airflow on the mobo side (i've got a YY cube). That means, zero fan on mobo, RAM, mosfets etc.. The mobo side is at 36°C under load, and 34°C idle. Everything is quite warm, but not burning hot.

I've been touching capacitors and mosfets on the mobo - no hot component there.

Personally, I don't care for any components to be allowed to get hot (i.e. zero fan), but hey, maybe that's just a personal preference. I'll stick with the theory that heat destroys electronics.

On the other hand, if one knows that one's PC is going to be completely upgraded in 2 or 3 years, then heck, go for it!

[Gerwin]

To all: thanks for the replies. Some suggested harddrive insulation and watercooling. If you look at my website (www.xs4all.nl/~philippo) you can see that I allready went that far, everything except my psu is watercooled/insulated. I allready built a giant radiator.
As as resume: I'll need a little airflow through the case, from down/front to up/back of the case. I'll have to get heatspreaders/heatsinks on all not watercooled parts to use the little airstream there is as much as possible. Any fan(s) should be of the silent type and undervolted.
OK, that's probably what I'll end up with, but I'm thinking beyond that. My computer is nearly silent allready. To illustrate: I bought a flatscreen because my monitor was noisy compared to the rest. So I was hoping for some ourageous ideas, like putting a waterjacket around the entire case, or some quantumphysics. So please, flush your brain and post ypur ideas!

Gerwin
www.xs4all.nl/~philippo

Btw, the watercooled psu in the link: they are for sale at Eur265,=. I'm seriously contemplating one. I know I'm mad, but that's what made me watercool me pc.

[gmat]

265€ is not much for a PSU of that caliber, and watercooled...
As for your airflow problem, that's your choice. As i stated, i got zero airflow and everything runs fine, and between 36°C and 45°C (approx.). BB2K: heat kills electronics when they run above spec. Most classic electronics components can run to 120°C, CPUs to about 90°C and power components (MOSFETs etc.) to 70°C generally. I've seen mosfets running at around 80°C for years without any problem, in an industrial application...
So below 50°C we've got a pretty comfortable security margin.
Gerwin: forget those fans. Try a chimney. Seriously. It has been done (even on early macs) and reported to work wonderfully. Currently many G4 owners think that way as well. Try a search on their respective forums...

[superart]

is this the type of HD enclosure u were talking about? http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/00017.html
It even comes with a sticker to tell you how much its overheating.
No, sereously, its a good idea, but might prove to be a little hard to fit in a waterblock.

But a better method might be to go with something like this:
http://www.xoxide.com/2ndhardrivco.html
and just insulate it.

Although, i disagree with their placement. I may be wrong, but wouldnt it be more eficient to mount the block on the flat metal top of the HDD?

[gmat]

Wrong. The hottest part of a HDD is actually the engine, which is situated *under* the unit.
All HDDs i've seen have a removable top screwed on and sandwiching an O-ring or a rubber joint. That means, an insulator.
So the hottest part is the underside, which is the same as the sides (half of them at least..). So cooling down the sides is actually the best way to do it.
If you try to cool down the top, you're cooling the 'hot part' through a rubber layer...

[nicozeg]

What Gmat has could be called the light approach. The drawback I found with it are optical drives. In such a system playing or burning a CD would be painful.

My ideal is a heavier solution with a custom made ATX case made of thick MDF board. On the inside all drives are suspended, and optical drives have a tight sealed, auto opening door similar to those on G4 Macs. I’d watercool as much as possible, and one of the case sides will hold a full size external passive radiator. Airflow requirements inside would be low, so there’s only one intake and one outlet, each one seriously muffled. Like I said before, a low spinning centrifugal blower will take care of ventilation.

The backside connectors area is difficult to insulate, so there’s a back “cable chamber”. There, a door with a thick foam edge seals outgoing cables.

[Gerwin]

Originally posted by gmat
Wrong. The hottest part of a HDD is actually the engine, which is situated *under* the unit.
All HDDs i've seen have a removable top screwed on and sandwiching an O-ring or a rubber joint. That means, an insulator.
So the hottest part is the underside, which is the same as the sides (half of them at least..). So cooling down the sides is actually the best way to do it.
If you try to cool down the top, you're cooling the 'hot part' through a rubber layer...

I agree with you there Gmat. However, you can take advantage of the fact that harddrives are designed to lose their heat to the side. Most hdd have big metal ribs running from the spindle motor to the heavy metal parts on the sides of their casings. The Innovatek hdd coolers I have are just watercooling blocks mounted on the sides of the hdd, with added rubber suspension to keep seeking noise down. According to mbm s.m.a.r.t. readouts my Seagate Cuda is 32C, and it really doesn't get any airflow at all.
Btw, the chimney idea may just be the 'outrage' I'm looking for to eliminate fans. Have any links to designs/photos? Would be gratefull. I think fans don't belong in computers. I feel it's against progress to have anything moving (apart from data) in a computer. If I were a billionair, I'd swap my hdds for huge chunks of flash memory

[gmat]

Originally posted by nicozeg
What Gmat has could be called the light approach.

Heh. I don't think so Many ppl don't even get close to that...

Then you said :

Airflow requirements inside would be low, so there’s only one intake and one outlet, each one seriously muffled. Like I said before, a low spinning centrifugal blower will take care of ventilation.

Duh ? Light approach ? Me ? You're just adding two (2) fans there... BUZZZZ wrong move
"silent" or "noiseless" is different from "rather quiet" or "not too loud".

Gerwin: last time i heard about chimneys it was in slashdot forums (good luck !!!) about G4 mac passive cooling enhancements. IIRC the G4 'cube' has zero fan (like the i-mac). I've seen people discussing convection principles and adapting PCs in Mac cases. You'll have to do a bit of searching though, i've read that some time ago and i cannot remember where.
The rough idea is to use strategically placed vents and a chimney to 'enhance' convection. About the shape, think of how fireplace chimneys work... Yep that kind of 'exponential' shape would do it.

(edit) i'm still convinved that the case itself is part of the solution there. A custom-built one sounds like a good idea.

[superart]

about the passive radiator idea, you really have to weigh the pros and cons. Would you rather have a 3 foot by 3 foot radiator in your room taking up space, or would you have a small heatercore with a undervolted fan blowing through it? I realize this isnt "SILENT" but having a radiator bigger than my case, to me, would be more annoying than a tiny sound that i couldnt hear.

However, i agree with you that fans have no place inside computers.....(just one quite one on the heatercore).

[koslov]

HDDs really don't make that much noise when they aren't reading/writing do they? What if you got a solid state drive, like this one, that had your OS and most used documents / programs. Then your HDD could be put to sleep until you needed something on it. There's a "turn-off hard disks" settting that could come in real handy.

Here's an idea I think Joe toyed with to cool the case air: Watercool a pelt with a heatsink attached to the cold side. Place it right near the mosfets so it picks up the heat radiated by them.

But... if I wanted a silent computing experience... I would just put my PC in an adjoining room and drill a hole in my wall, then thread the VGA/PS2/USB and power button through the wall. Then who cares how loud it is, as long as I can't hear it through the wall.

Oh... but you're looking for something "elegant," aren't you?

[nicozeg]

Originally posted by gmat
Heh. I don't think so Many ppl don't even get close to that...


Duh ? Light approach ? Me ? You're just adding two (2) fans there... BUZZZZ wrong move
"silent" or "noiseless" is different from "rather quiet" or "not too loud".

Well, maybe I used the wrong expression, Lightweight will be less offending? I know is not easy to do that.

My idea of a silent solution is to be able of connecting it to a HiFi sound system, where I don’t like any background noise. In this setup, watching a DVD will be terrible with all the noise that drives make.

[superart]

koslov, i like your pelt idea!!!

[Gerwin]

Originally posted by superart
about the passive radiator idea, you really have to weigh the pros and cons. Would you rather have a 3 foot by 3 foot radiator in your room taking up space, or would you have a small heatercore with a undervolted fan blowing through it? I realize this isnt "SILENT" but having a radiator bigger than my case, to me, would be more annoying than a tiny sound that i couldnt hear.

However, i agree with you that fans have no place inside computers.....(just one quite one on the heatercore).

Actually, I built a giant passive radiator that's bigger than my pc case. (see my site at: www.xs4all.nl/~philippo)I put it behind my desk up against the wall, so it isn't even visible, and it's cooling very well. So that leaves me with just 1 fan left, in the psu. Hence my interest in the watercooled psu that made me start this thread.

[Gerwin]

Originally posted by koslov
But... if I wanted a silent computing experience... I would just put my PC in an adjoining room and drill a hole in my wall, then thread the VGA/PS2/USB and power button through the wall. Then who cares how loud it is, as long as I can't hear it through the wall.

Oh... but you're looking for something "elegant," aren't you?

Well, no, but my appartment has just 1 room

[Gerwin]

Originally posted by gmat
Gerwin: last time i heard about chimneys it was in slashdot forums (good luck !!!) about G4 mac passive cooling enhancements. IIRC the G4 'cube' has zero fan (like the i-mac). I've seen people discussing convection principles and adapting PCs in Mac cases. You'll have to do a bit of searching though, i've read that some time ago and i cannot remember where.
The rough idea is to use strategically placed vents and a chimney to 'enhance' convection. About the shape, think of how fireplace chimneys work... Yep that kind of 'exponential' shape would do it.

(edit) i'm still convinved that the case itself is part of the solution there. A custom-built one sounds like a good idea.

Thnx. Haven't found anything yet, but I get the idea. Actually, I could enhance the chimney by heating the air in the upper part of it. The heat wouldn't get to the case, but would increase the airflow. It just seems a bit waste of energy. Maybe I do need to build my own case. It's a pity some people don't get the idea of silence and zero fan. I'm afraid I'm beyond quiet undervolted fans, blowholes and wrapping up harddrives. I already have all that, and I want to move on. Somehow I don't get it that a 20 year old calculator has less moving parts then a modern pc and is less noisy, and that they call that progress. To me all this feels like you need a steam engine to keep your 2 GHz processor running. I'm able to sleep next to my alarm clock/radio (until it goes of), so why wouldn't I do that next to my computer? Would anybody accept a photo camera that's buzzing and whining all the time? Or a light bulb that doubles up as a gas turbine? But a computer that whines, buzzes and rattles is appearantly perfectly acceptable. And when someone gets that down to the level of a vacuum cleaner at half voltage, it's called a quiet computer. No way! Nothing in a computer that's essential to computing is actually making noise or even moving, so it must be possible to make a noiseless computer. And maybe I will do that, just for the hell of it.
Oops, this turns into a quest against sound and I didn't mean that. I do like music. But I like to listen to it not disturbed by the sound of a computer. Why else would there be mp3?

[gmat]

Hehe you would have to say "hello" to the neighbours
Seriously the 'PC-in-the-next-room' solution is widespread among audio pros who cannot tolerate the least background noise. The problem with this solution is cable extension, or radio transmitters. Wireless keyboard and mouse, long optical fibers (=$$$) for audio connections, the only thing that really suffers is the video... But audio professionals don't really care about that. (and video pros are already accustomed to noisy studios)
Some friends of mine who built their house recently installed wire passages through the walls, between the living room and the garage, to install a 'audio-video-console-gaming-surfing' station without cluttering the living room or adding noise there.
(edit) ah we posted at the same time. BTW if you're a true audiophile you should despise mp3 Baaad sound quality. Well, under 256Kb/s that is.