Newbie with ambitions

[Cooler]

I am starting to build a water cooled Dual Athlon system.
Looking at all the information on the various sites, I have concluded on the following. Should it be inaccurate, I'd appreciate a note...

-2 Maze2 waterblocks
-1/2" tubes (better than 3/8)
-inline pump (how many gph?)
-Cube radiator

Now for the uncertainties:

-Should I use a faster pump or two radiators?
-Is 3/8" good enough or should I go with 1/2"?

Anything I'm missing?

Thanks,

Cooler

[GuyBFF]

I would order 1/2" over 3/8" considering it's nearly the same cost overall and you will have double the blocks to restrict flow.

When you order your 1/2" Maze 2 blocks also specify "upgrade" in the commemts area so you will be sure to get the new version, which cools about the same, but flows much better, which will benefit you with the dual setup

As for pumps I think a Mag-Drive 350 will probably suffice. I have a single Maze 2 1/2" "upgrade" and it nearly doesn't slow the flow down, so I'd like to say the second one couldn't do much harm either. Even the 350gph version places a lot of heat in the system, and as the ratings go higher there wattage seems to go up exponentialy.

Lastly for rads I'd definetly do something with lots of headroom like a Big Momma, or D-Tek Cooler Core. I'm swayed towards the D-Tek now (even though there new) because they have 1/2" fittings and are only $42.00. A single high quality rad will work better than two (proven in motorcycle racing as the differance in air to water temp is lower in the second rad, lowering cooling efficiency).

Your one of the first to try the dual athlon setup, so I can only speculate this rad will be enough. As for routing, I'd go inline (without a resevoir, just a t-fitting), and run in series between everything. Your flow should be high enough and the difference between cpu temps in intel situations is usually only a degree or two. Sometimes if you go parellel the flow (and cooling ability) drops and causes both blocks to be even higher, but hey like I said, you'll need to experiment (it'll work either way, and tubings cheap, watercooling is all about experimenting)

Please definetely follow up results when you're done, I'm sure many of us will be very interested!!!

[Spinoza]

I have nearly completed my Dual Athlon water cooled rig. Although the previous posters have stated that dual athlons throw off lots of heat. I just don't see this. The simple fact is, there are NO dual athlon boards that support overclocking. (Well, you can change the chip L bridges, but you have to stay in a low safe range, because Dual overclocking is less stable then uni-system) Also, most people fronting money for dually Athlons are getting Athlon MP chips. They throw off less heat then their T-bird cousins. No one is going to use peltiers in a dual Athlon system. That would be pointless, the benefits would be next to nill, and the hassle would be huge. So the most heat you are looking at from a Dual Athlon system is two chips at 80Watts..( I'm rounding waaay up... ) 160 Watts... that's nothing... any decent system can handle that. At this point the goal of Athlon dual water cooling is to get a quiet system.. (Two delta fans.... AHHHHH)
Hell, I'm just using two crappy 5X11 tube and fin rads, and 4 Low flow panaflows. 3/8 tubing all the way ( but 1/2 inch fittings..STRECH.. You get much better flow this way... )

[Spinoza]

I forgot a very important consideration when building a dual athlon water cooled rig, The weight of the water blocks... You mentioned that you wanted to purchase Maze 2's for the system. Although the Maze is an exceptional preforming water block, it's also all copper. This makes is fairly heavy. Once you place TWO of these on a single board, and fill them with water you have A TON of lateral pressure on the board. (You could go with a desktop setup instead of a tower.. I considered it) To lighten the load I went with Swiftech MCW462 water blocks. They have a bottom copper plate and an Aluminum top. They weight much less then the Maze2. I might also suggest a polyblock, copper or silver bottom, depending on the budget. I didn't know these existed when I bought my stuff.
NOTE: both the Maze2 and the swiftech blocks mount with four bolts through the board.

My pump is a Eheim 1250, more then enough for this setup, and super quiet and reliable to boot.

Picture of top radiator setup.. and a sad Lian-Li that's very lonely... but not for long.

[WaterPog]

Or you could use spacers between teh board and the mobo backing plate/tray, that way it will stiffen the board. I work in an assembly house (Automated SMT electronics assy., as a process eng.) and I can tell you for sure that you don't want the board flexing. solder joints can crack very easily, and you will never know it...you will just have an unexplicable problem (probably intermittant) and blame it on the board.

[Cooler]

Thanks for the tips folks. I really hadn't given the flexing problem any thought until now. I'll reconsider the blocks, although I was under the impression that Swiftech only maked the 90 degree angled fittings and the review I read here mentioned things were kinda tight. http://www.procooling.com/reviews/ht...7_review.shtml

Looks like the Mag-Drive pump is less expensive than the Eheim ones, but is it quieter?

This being my first attempt, I have my reservations about leaks, so here's another question: What should I use to secure the tubes on all the various fittings? Is there a McMaster part #?

And one last thing for today:
I saw mentioned somewhere that the higher the radiator is located, the slower the flow because the pump needs to work harder. Is this a concern? I'd think that a strong pump would be able to take care of this without any problems.

In any case, I'm going full speed ahead with this. I've ordered the case (Server Cube) and the electronics, so I only need to refine the liquid kit. The more info you guys throw at me, the faster I'll set it up!!!

Cooler

[WaterPog]

Ok, the problem is that flow will drop with pressure in a water system just like it will in any system. The problem is that these pumps are designed for high flow and low pressure so the drop is pretty quick, in some cases even the best pumps are only pushing ~50GPH real world after you figure in the water blocks, tubing and radiators. This is one place where the Eheim's excell, they don't drop off like the other and are able to push more pressure before stalling out.

For the tubing, most people use standard worm screw type hose clamps...they are cheap, available and they work but aren't very pretty. For me, I will be doing all my tubing in braided stainless with AN fittings, just for looks really but it is a bunch more expensive (I just happen to have a bunch left over from the fuel system in my Mustang )

[GuyBFF]

Braided stainless is very expensive, very stiff, and for the exterior size has a very small ID. It will however look good and not kink easily, but be sure it's not leveraging on those water blocks, and that you select a large enough ID.

AN fittings on the other hand are wonderful as they keep a constant ID threwout the fitting. If you must go stainless, consider replacing the barbs with threaded in AN adapters as well, at this point why not go all the way (I once road raced a Mustang, and strip 'Cuda as well).

If you compare an Eheim and a Mag-Drive of about the same size (take a Danner #3 - 350gph and a 1250 Eheim) there is almost equal max head height and flow at each level of restriction. Centrifugal pumps do lose flow fast as effectively they're very easy to cavitate, but both are relitively equal, and where most rated pumps loose faster is when people compare the pumps with a base rating at 0' versus 1' (both the eheim and Danner Mag-Drive advertise 1' ratings). If the pump was rated at no head, then it would abviously start in a higher curve exponentialy for its drop in flow rate.

The eheim is however a better pump and I only put the best in my computer, but it's not enough of a difference to matter (regardless of the price I bought a Danner).

Your estimation of about 50gph is probably correct in most systems, however, a good low restriction rad (like a Big Momma / D-Tek / Heater Core Style) and the new "upgrade" Maze 2 with 1/2" tubing will have a MUCH higher flow rate. I haven't measured the difinative speed, but before I installed all of my components I ran the pump with just tubing on it to break it in while I recieved each part, then added a part at a time and I haven't experienced much of a decline in the rate which the tiny bubble flow in my system. Once I got all the air out it was MUCH, MUCH, faster than my best friend's system with a BE Cooling Block, and a tranny cooler rad with 3/8" hose. (and you have to assume the velocity of flow would be faster in the smaller 3/8")

[Flash]

I'd definitely recommend an Eheim over the Danner. The Danners (a lot of them anyway) leak if you don't seal them, and the one I had leaked no matter how much crap I gooped on it. Not good.

[GuyBFF]

I've heard that if you place too much force on the head pipes of the Danners, it distorts the cover and they leak.

I've tried to do this (to test) and to this day I can't make mine leak, so I'm not sure what everyones talking about.

On the other hand I find all the O-ringed fittings on the eheim can dry up over time. Neither is entirely perfect. I do believe the Eheim is a better pump, but I don't see anything wrong with the Danner, and a lot of people start gooping and siliconing the Danner before even trying it (then rave about the need to do this, without ever seeing if theres actually leaked).

[Cooler]

Sold!!!

To Mr Eheim for the quality of their product!

I went shopping today and here is what is on its way:

2x Maze2 (upgrade)
10 ft of silicone tubing
4x 120mm fans
1x Doc5 fan controller
Various rounded cables
Arctic silver

Now that I have your input, I'll get the Eheim with the higher rate.

I'm still contemplating between the Cube radiator and the D-Tek, but I'm leaning toward the D-Tek since the fittings are 1/2"

Anything else I need to add to my shopping basket?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input

Cooler

[GuyBFF]

4 120mm Fans??? Where do you plan on putting 4??? If you go D-Tek or Cube you will only require one good one (and a homemade shroud for the D-Tek mounting the fan 1" from rad). One will also help on the other end of the case, but I haven't seen many cases that can fit 4 (you know how big they are right???)

If you do a cube the BE unit has more potential to cool at the same price as Danger Den, and is more 1/2" compatible (it's in-between, and will work with a hose clamp of some sort, so says BE). The D-Tek is still preferable if you don't mind having to construct a shroud from paper and duct tape or something better, and mounting with Zip ties.

Other than the list you have you will want well distilled water from the grocery mart (the stuff with the least minerals, sometimes the higher priced has added minerals).

Some Water Wetter or Glycol Antifreeze, but I'd sway towards Water Wetter (also orderable in a small bottle from Danger Den for $5.00, enough to make at least a gallon)

Up to you but I would add some sort of hose clamp (either stainless gear, or those plastic clip style Danger Den or hardware stores sell). Not totally necessary, but I'd hate a hose to come off when you where doing something in the computer (even if it just ment a mess).

Some 1000, 1500 and 2000 grit wet dry sand paper if you want to put a final polish on the blocks, although they come VERY well lapped for production blocks, not buffed like some (which is good, buffing on a wheel makes the surface less flat, just pretty). You'll want to do this on a flat surface like a good piece of glass.

Depending on the pump you chose you may require a conversion for the inlet (as Eheim inlet's on the 1250's are 3/4", you can stretch on the next smaller size silicon, but this is pushing it). Danger Den carries simple kits again.

A 1/2" T-Fitting to place on the highest point of the hose connected to the outlet of the pump (most likely place for bubbles to form), to fill and trap bubbles.

Also a barbed stopper or other device to cap off this "T" once filled so as to not evaporate / spill / surge out into case.

I'm sure you meant this, but Arctic Silver II is easier to work with than the original.

[Def]

I have a BE Cooling Aquacoil(Cube radiator), and the fittings are 1/2" OD exactly. They are a nice snug fit with my 1/2" ID braided PVC tubing. They didn't leak one drop with just the hose on there and no clamp.

I put a few layers of teflon tape on there just to make a nice tight seal and it ran for 2 days straight without a single leak. Still no hose clamp(bought the wrong size, DOH!).

I was worried the radiator wouldn't work well with 1/2" ID tubing before I ordered it. But now I'm completely happy with my purchase.

The flow is pretty good out of this unit as well. I got a Danner MagDrive 500 gph pump and I'm starting to wonder if I went a little overboard. It wasn't much more than the 350gph one, and at least I know I've got lots of headroom in the flow department.

[GuyBFF]

Hmmm, BE used to list there unit's as 7/16, maybe they meant 7/16" ID (with 1/2" OD).

Sounds better if it fits 1/2" hose directly!

[Cooler]

Yeah, I think I goofed on the fans.
The case has three grills for fans, but now that I have the case, I see that they are all 80mm ones.

Given the pictures I've seen around, I'll probably end up cutting out the two rear fan grills to accomodate the D-Tek radiator.

Does it make a big difference if the fittings are on the top or the bottom?

Cooler

[GuyBFF]

If the fittings are on the bottom it will take more effort to get the air out of the rad, and later bubbles may re-accumulate. Due to the fact that flow in a heater core can travel in different paths at different rates it's easy to get an air lock if one of the fittings isn't up (to let air rise out).

Could you mount it sideways??? I'd either try sideways (both fittings to left ar right), up (both fittings at top) or flat on the top or bottom. This is also the way heater cores are mounted in cars, never with both fittings at the bottom (I assume for the same reason).

[WaterPog]

Originally posted by Def:
I put a few layers of teflon tape on there just to make a nice tight seal

I just wanted to let everyone know that Teflon Tape is not a sealant!!!

Teflon is a LUBRICANT, not a sealant, it is for use on Pipe thread which is tapered, it lets you get more thread into the hole without galling the threads or stripping them out, it does not seal anything. This being said, you should only use ONE layer of teflon at any time, any more will actually make the connection worse than without anything. I actually prefer teflon paste, it is easier to work with because any extra will just be squeesed out the edges, plus it is easier to apply and if you get any into to system it will not plug things up like tape can (applies more to systems with small orefices than here, but it could get wrapped arround the shaft of the pump if you are an unlucky type...)

Sorry for my rant, but I have been burned by people doing this at work (you should have seen the mess when the board wash lost a fitting on a 200psi pipe because some num-nut mummified the thing in teflon and couldn't get it tight) I would hate to see your system spring a leak because of it...

[Cooler]

The radiator will not fit in the case sideways, so I guess I'll mount it with the in/oultet at the top.

What is the best way to get rid of the air? I was thinking of running the setup in my tub, with the extra tube at the top to let the air escape and them fit it into the box...

Cooler

[GuyBFF]

WaterPog, I can assume you've never worked worked with larger fittings, like 1/2" NPT plus, or in situations with unequal physical properties, like plastics and metals.

Check with the manufacturers before you rant, teflon tape is not pure teflon, and IS considered a sealant as well as a lubricant. It is used to seal in situations where threads cannot physically mate (like soft metals or plastics). In steel fittings, or in places where a high stress joint may crack before mating.

It however is used mainly for the content of teflon to lubricate and avoid damaging threads before enough pressure has been applied to mate, but if your a plumber or anyone in the industry you will also know it is required to apply more as the fitting size (and finish of the fittings) increases.

You are correct in the fact the over applying will cause it to ball up, worsening sealing, and possibly causing stress and failure to fittings before a leak free and "tight" joint is felt.

Also most liquid compounds also contain a sealant as well, there are very very few (for special applications, not thread fitting) which only contain teflon and a carrier.

I supplied these products for six and a half years, and have seen every misuse. Our distributers where on a very close level with us when it came to product knowledge.

[WaterPog]

Originally posted by GuyBFF:
WaterPog, I can assume you've never worked worked with larger fittings, like 1/2" NPT plus, or in situations with unequal physical properties, like plastics and metals.

In fact the situation I was refering to was on a 2" pipe from a HIGH pressure (200psi as I said) pump to a set of wash jets and probalby should have had a flanged fitting in the first place instead of what was there, but I can see your point and in low pressure situations like this one It will probably not matter.(I am not too big to admit that I was comparing apples to oranges a bit)

[GuyBFF]

Thanks, I was just having a bad night, I shouldn't be trying to moderate by creating a bigger rant.