Heater core, brass on the inside or copper? Proof!

[jaydee]

Well this was more of a thread to prove myself over at OC'ers. But I thought it might have some other relevant information. And this is just an example of the crap I will go through to learn something.


I was questioned in another thread. Someone was pretty sure I had heater core that was Copper on the inside and others suggested all heater cores where made this way. I denied this as I have read many times how heater cores are made and I will start with a few references.

http://innovations.copper.org/2000/03/cuprobraze.html

Automotive radiators have undergone numerous technological changes over the past 100 years, although none of these changes are more obvious than the metals from which the radiator is constructed. In the copper/brass radiator, the radiator's fins are made from nearly pure copper and the tubes and header tanks are made from brass. In an aluminum radiator, all components are made from an aluminum alloy.

http://www.4s.com/fourseasons/heater_cores.html

The components for our copper brass heater cores are all manufactured in house. The distribution and return tanks are stamped and formed from a brass strip by progressive dies. The holes for the nozzles are then punched in the appropriate configuration. The nozzles are cut, end formed, and bent into the correct shape from raw brass tube stock. The water channels and air fins are manufactured using an automated process. The channel is stamped and formed from a brass ribbon and the air fin is roll formed from a copper ribbon. The two are then inserted together automatically and deposited into a chute for core assembly. The fin and channel are marked with the distribution and return tanks using universal framing fixtures. Both faces of the core bodies and all corners are then run through an automated flux and solder dipping process.

Now then to the empirical evidence that my core is in fact all brass. I unsoldered the pipes and took a gander inside:

My heater core in question. In a bucket of water ready for de-soldering. Note I put it in water so I would only melt the solder on the pipes and not the whole core.

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Heating it up to melt the solder.

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Pipes removed.

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here is were I thought I was going to have to eat crow. It sure looked red and like copper.

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But I wasn't satisfied. It started to look more like a burnt coating caused by the torch and sure enough! I got out the trusty dremel and there it is, BRASS!

[Long Haired Git]

I have been working with this too.
If anyone has a copper cored radiator or heater core I'd love to know.

All I can find in aluminium and brass.

Annoyingly, when I pursued making my own, the thinnest wall for copper I could get was 4 times thicker than brass.

Check out the respective K values and you'll find brass around 3 times worse, so the thinner brass is better than thicker copper....

[pippin88]

Originally posted by Long Haired Git
I have been working with this too.
If anyone has a copper cored radiator or heater core I'd love to know.

All I can find in aluminium and brass.

Annoyingly, when I pursued making my own, the thinnest wall for copper I could get was 4 times thicker than brass.

Check out the respective K values and you'll find brass around 3 times worse, so the thinner brass is better than thicker copper....

You have arrived LHG!

Yes Copper cored cores would be good. The current radiator thread features one that looks suitable.

What are the reasons for using brass over copper in common cores though?

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by pippin88
You have arrived LHG!

Yes Copper cored cores would be good. The current radiator thread features one that looks suitable.

What are the reasons for using brass over copper in common cores though?

Cost and Strength. Brass is cheaper than copper, and because it is stronger, it can be used thinner, thereby mitigating any conductivity loss.

Bob

[jaydee]

Some still insist the Chevette core they have is copper on the inside. And they say by buying it at the car dealer instead of the auto parts store is the difference. :shrug: I tend to doubt it. he says he did just as i did and looked in the hole to see the copper, but I thought it was copper when I first looked at it to. Heating it up turnes it redish. You have to scrape a layer off to get the brass color.

I really don't think a copper tubed rad would be much better. The rad I used above does an excellent job of keeping the water 3-5C on a overclocked comp running DC projects. I doubt the difference would be measurable.

[Boli]

IF you want to find what a heater core is made of and you don't just want to cut it up and see, Go archimedies on their ass.

The heater core is either all-brass or copper brass. either way the two alloys weigh slightly differntly (the bigger the heatercore) the bigger the wight difference. (this is ignoring soldering and such)

And now you shove it in in a mesauring bucket (you make a bucket with a "ruler" down the side showing how much water is in it. you mark where the water was before and where it was after, after all the ait bubles have be displaced. yiu'll be able to find its volume.

With its volume/weight you should now be able to work out its density. and hope that you can get an acurate enough reading.


given that Brass's density is 0.309 lb/in^3
and copper is 0.322 lb/in^3

Then any reading betweeen the two values will show that a mixture of copper and brass are present. closer to the brass end of the scale and we have mainly brass.

Sorry I could not get metric readings.

~ Boli

(Eureka!)

[Sproket]

Can you people post where you have bought your Heatercore's or Rad's? I might need another one.

I have a dtek Rad but it does not look brass inside it looks like white metal, this is a brand new rad never used. I called dtek and they said its the solder that Im seeing. The fins are copper.

Thanks

[Sproket]

Also the BlackIce Extreme's are brass inside, a guy over there(Dangerden) cut one in half for me when I was on the phone. Told me everything about it.

[pelle76]

Originally posted by Boli
IF you want to find what a heater core is made of and you don't just want to cut it up and see, Go archimedies on their ass.

The heater core is either all-brass or copper brass. either way the two alloys weigh slightly differntly (the bigger the heatercore) the bigger the wight difference. (this is ignoring soldering and such)

And now you shove it in in a mesauring bucket (you make a bucket with a "ruler" down the side showing how much water is in it. you mark where the water was before and where it was after, after all the ait bubles have be displaced. yiu'll be able to find its volume.

With its volume/weight you should now be able to work out its density. and hope that you can get an acurate enough reading.


given that Brass's density is 0.309 lb/in^3
and copper is 0.322 lb/in^3

Then any reading betweeen the two values will show that a mixture of copper and brass are present. closer to the brass end of the scale and we have mainly brass.

Sorry I could not get metric readings.

~ Boli

(Eureka!)

Don't bother doing that...
Problems that would disturb the meassuring:
1. Air trapped in the rad when reading the waterlevel.
2. Water or something else in the rad when putting it in the water and therefore adding to the water already in the bucket.
3. No water or any other stuff in the rad when weighting it.

and then... if you manage to pull those off... You would still have to get measurments that differed first on the third decimal. Because the density difference between brass and copper is so small. That would require pretty good instruments... But hey... stay creative..

[bigben2k]

Nice work JD.


I had to check my heatercore, and I believe that my fins are copper. The tanks, tube and exterior are clearly brass, yellow brass.

The whole core looks like it was dipped in lead. There's a small section that got missed, and it's very thin, almost flimsy, but most likely copper. I scratched it with a small knife, and the red color remains.

[pelle76]

Originally posted by bigben2k
Nice work JD.


I had to check my heatercore, and I believe that my fins are copper. The tanks, tube and exterior are clearly brass, yellow brass.

The whole core looks like it was dipped in lead. There's a small section that got missed, and it's very thin, almost flimsy, but most likely copper. I scratched it with a small knife, and the red color remains.

Just like JD says then...

But maybe that was what you ment...

The channel is stamped and formed from a brass ribbon and the air fin is roll formed from a copper ribbon. The two are then inserted together automatically and deposited into a chute for core assembly. The fin and channel are marked with the distribution and return tanks using universal framing fixtures. Both faces of the core bodies and all corners are then run through an automated flux and solder dipping process.

[winewood]

I have seen some people RAG on others for putting brass barbs in their blocks. They said it was adding another metal to the gavanistic corrosion tantrum. Sounds like the little brass that makes up the barbs is nothing to the brass comprising the hc.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by winewood
I have seen some people RAG on others for putting brass barbs in their blocks. They said it was adding another metal to the gavanistic corrosion tantrum. Sounds like the little brass that makes up the barbs is nothing to the brass comprising the hc.

Some people included myself. You have to understand the situation. You leaving a HELL of a lot of details out and trying (maybe unintentional) to generalize.

First off putting brass barbs on a AL block that is not anodized is not good. Why? because the metals are pysically touching each other. Bad stuff happens when you throw water into a mix of metals touching each other that don't react well with each other.

Second how is a Heater core connected to the block? Through hose and water. The only thing that can cause issues is the water that connects the brass core to the AL block. Being the metals are not pysically touching the effect is not as substantial as if the metals are pysicaly touching being the corrosion process has to happen through the water. And it will, just takes more time.

Third, even if the block is well anodized, the threads on a brass barb are sharp. They can slice right through the anodizing layer and allow water to seep in. If that happens the corrosion effect can actually go UNDER the anodizing layer. Like rust under the paint of a car. Can simply be worked around with plastic or non brass barbs.

You can simply add anti corrosive materials to the water, but then it is still just a matter of time. If you take steps to limit cross metal contamination in the first place and use anti corrosives then your as good as your going to get. If you use all brass/copper you can even get away with just distilled water for a long time (long time meaning a few months or so). AL on the other hand is pretty nasty, if it is not anodized. It gets ugly fast if you don't use anti corrosives. Aluminum has a terrible oxidation problem. It should simply not be used, but if it is then use anti freeze or similar. Even if you DON'T have brass/copper in the system AL will cause issues. Brass/Copper will to but it takes a hell of a lot longer. AL will however work and work decent as long as anti corrosives are utilized.

This is how I come to understand it from a non scientific point of view. If I am wrong please correct me. I am sure some of this is not completely accurate.

[MadDogMe]

I've seen people recomend not using brass barbs as well, with a an 'all copper' system, not alu. I can understand the reasoning as there is corrosion on my brass barbs (black) in my 'all copper' system, but I thought it was general knowledge the header tanks at least are made from brass?...

As to the copper rad from the dealer, it's diferent for sure but copper?. Dealers stock only original parts, Vendors use any pattern they can find that's cheap...


PS, Also please be careful when soldering heatercores, if their is water inside it will boil and produce steam pressure which can force pinholes in the molten solder!. This is more relevant when repair soldering the fins than when working on barbs but can still apply...

[jaydee]

Originally posted by MadDogMe
I've seen people recomend not using brass barbs as well, with a an 'all copper' system, not alu. I can understand the reasoning as there is corrosion on my brass barbs (black) in my 'all copper' system, but I thought it was general knowledge the header tanks at least are made from brass?...

Brass actually is more corrosion resistant than Copper so I don't know what that is about.

As to the copper rad from the dealer, it's diferent for sure but copper?. Dealers stock only original parts, Vendors use any pattern they can find that's cheap...

Not for sure no, I said I doubted it was copper on the inside as per all the manufactures I can find all state they use brass. From what i can gather the same core manufactures make both the OEM and the retail cores and they are the same. But havn't been able to 100% garuntee it. I think it is a mute point anyway as copper or brass the temps should be unmeasurable by anythng other than a expensive thermometer.

PS, Also please be careful when soldering heatercores, if their is water inside it will boil and produce steam pressure which can force pinholes in the molten solder!. This is more relevant when repair soldering the fins than when working on barbs but can still apply...

That why I used water on the outside of it as well as on the inside. Good point though.

[Boli]

Don't bother doing that...
Problems that would disturb the meassuring:
1. Air trapped in the rad when reading the waterlevel.
2. Water or something else in the rad when putting it in the water and therefore adding to the water already in the bucket.
3. No water or any other stuff in the rad when weighting it.

and then... if you manage to pull those off... You would still have to get measurments that differed first on the third decimal. Because the density difference between brass and copper is so small. That would require pretty good instruments... But hey... stay creative..

*shrugs*

Would work, you just have to be careful with the air bubbles naturally. Though you should be able to get most of them out, same with empting the liquid already in. shove it in the airing cupboard over night after rinsing and blowing air through it.

We used some sort of measuring bucket in Physics, years ago. A beaker with a ruler shoved in it when we did density experiments.

As long as the "bucket" is a cylinder, i.e. it doesn't get bigger as it goes up you just measure the diameter and what the water level was BEFORE and AFTER, you have the volume to a pretty accurate degree.

the thinner the "bucket" and the larger the heatercore the more accurate the final answer will be.. do a few tries and take the average (you'll have to dry off the heater core in the mean time though)

I recon you could get a reading within +/- 2%. Heck all you are looking for is if the density is closer to one rather than the other giving you the amount of copper in the thing.

If the density reports to 0.312 you can safely assume it has got copper in its make, and there is a high chance that it's core is copper.
Add that to the fact it's a wonderfully longwinded way to go about it and since most people jumped into water cooling because they wanted a challenge, and if you have the equipment I say way NOT go for it.

I for one will want to know if my Black Ice is indeed aluminium as I suspect and not copper as they claim because I think the thing is just too damn light.

~ Boli

(Finding out the hard way he forgot to pull the plug out of the PSU)

[FuzzyFace]

I e-mailed Fisher Radiator Service several months ago (Aug 29th 2002) asking about the metals in some of their heater cores. Their response was as follows

All the heaters listed below have brass tanks and the cores are made with copper.

Thanks....Don

Fisher's Radiator Service
Don Fisher
www.heatercore4U.com


2-205
2-422
2-417
2-144
2-257
2-275

[Cathar]

Yeah, brass barbs will "blacken" in an all-copper system. No harm though. It's just a surface oxide layer of some kind and it doesn't seem to get any worse.

[pelle76]

Its the zinc oxidicing and forming a protective layer I guess...

[MadDogMe]

Yeah, brass barbs will "blacken" in an all-copper system. No harm though. It's just a surface oxide layer of some kind and it doesn't seem to get any worse.

Phew!, I was worried , perhaps the zinc molecules get ate away until only copper is exposed, or the oxidisation protects it from further attack?...

Not for sure no, I said I doubted it was copper on the inside as per all the manufactures I can find all state they use brass. From what i can gather the same core manufactures make both the OEM and the retail cores and they are the same. But havn't been able to 100% garuntee it. I think it is a mute point anyway as copper or brass the temps should be unmeasurable by anythng other than a expensive thermometer.

It would be the exception to the rule if they were made by the same manufacturer. I've never seen a patern part for a car that's the same quality as an original, and I've never seen an original item sold in a generic autoparts store. Probably is a small/localised industry though. They would never use copper though, it makes no sense :shrug: ...

[Long Haired Git]

I've done a quick search on the named "copper" heater cores, and none of the cars for them were brought into Australia.



Also, the URL supplied goes to an empty web space - no site there?!?!?!

So, who can help me with the email address of a radiator repair shop in the USA who's a bit tech savy? Eg: Someone with a PayPal address for easy payment, or can take credit-cards over the phone or the net?

I don't want to buy an entire heatercore, so I need a repair shop.

[FuzzyFace]

It has been a long time since I e-mailed Fisher’s (the address in my above post is no longer accessable). I did a google search and found this.
Fisher's Radiator Service, 111 Brickyard Road, Mars, PA 16046 1-724-625-3370 radman@zbzoom.net
I don’t know if this e-mail address works

[Long Haired Git]

Emails went out, and the silence has been roaring in my ears.
Sigh.
Looks like brass for the git....

[Can O' Beans]

All cores I've ever had were only copper on for the fins, tubes and tanks were brass. THere were a few different models, bot hGM & Ford, but only remember one - '87 Ford Escort that is in my system now.

[hara]

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