A decent pump with an 18' head?

[Rayman2k2]

Okay, I wanna put a radiator in the basement...18' below. Is there a pump that can handle this kind of head loss, w/o dumping a shitload of heat into the water?

[brucoman]

Iwaki 20RZ or 30RZ

[bigben2k]

You're going about it the wrong way.

You don't need to be concerned with the height, unless you plan to run an open loop. The head you need to lift the water up, is negated by the water going down, so all you really have to worry about, is the flow restriction of the tubing run.

Otherwise, make sure you clamp those rad connections tight, because you will have the total head of pressure on it.

[brucoman]

Originally posted by bigben2k
You're going about it the wrong way.

You don't need to be concerned with the height, unless you plan to run an open loop. The head you need to lift the water up, is negated by the water going down, so all you really have to worry about, is the flow restriction of the tubing run.

Otherwise, make sure you clamp those rad connections tight, because you will have the total head of pressure on it.

technically, correct (does need to be completely filled from the top bleeding all air before starting)
however, no engineer wanting to keep his degree/job would EVER do/spec such a thing.
not the place to go ghetto.... get a real pump!

[nikhsub1]

Correct Ben but, in a perfect situation for him, he would have 36 feet of tubing That in itself with no blocks or fittings will create a sizeable pressure drop. Definately go for an Iwaki MD-20 or 30 RZT.

[bigben2k]

Using Hazen-Williams (Darcy would be more accurate), I calculate 1 foot of head loss through 36' of true 1/2" ID tubing, at 1 gpm (60 gph).

It climbs up to 2' 2", at 1.5 gpm (90 gph).


(friction factor: 150)

[Hellion_Prime]

I've got a little giant 3-MD-SC. Documentation on it lists a max head of 21.9 feet. @ roughly 100 gph.

[ralf_c]

Iwaki 20RZ or 30RZ

ditto

[Cathar]

I'd say just go for the Iwaki MD-30RZ. It will put heat into your water, about as much as your CPU does at a rough guess, but since the radiator is in the basement you can afford the space to have a large radiator and just forget about the pump heat.

Go grab a small car radiator and use that. It's what I'd do if I had lots of space for a radiator. You'd be lucky if your water temps ever climbed much above 1C above ambient if you put an appropriately sized fan on it.

If you're going to go to the bother of doing a basement radiator, then enjoy the luxury of the high water flow rates that the MD-30RZ will give you, and the luxury of a radiator sized large enough to deal with it without batting an eyelid.

[Rayman2k2]

very nice then. only one problem though, how hard is it to send pipes down two floors? do i just make a hole in the wall and shove it down? or do i have to search for holes in the floor board? my basement is not finished, btw.

[Rayman2k2]

Originally posted by Cathar
I'd say just go for the Iwaki MD-30RZ. It will put heat into your water, about as much as your CPU does at a rough guess, but since the radiator is in the basement you can afford the space to have a large radiator and just forget about the pump heat.

Go grab a small car radiator and use that. It's what I'd do if I had lots of space for a radiator. You'd be lucky if your water temps ever climbed much above 1C above ambient if you put an appropriately sized fan on it.

If you're going to go to the bother of doing a basement radiator, then enjoy the luxury of the high water flow rates that the MD-30RZ will give you, and the luxury of a radiator sized large enough to deal with it without batting an eyelid.

define small car radiator...

[Gooserider]

Rayman2k2:
define small car radiator...

An engine radiator, not a heater core, from a small car (i.e. Ford Escort) as opposed to one from a big car (i.e. Ford Explorer) Of course if space isn't a major issue, there isn't any real reason not to go for a really big radiator like one from a large car or truck.

Rayman2k2 very nice then. only one problem though, how hard is it to send pipes down two floors? do i just make a hole in the wall and shove it down? or do i have to search for holes in the floor board? my basement is not finished, btw.

Obviously if you can find appropriate holes that would be better, but it isn't likely. However, if your basement isn't finished, it's fairly trivial to drill, just use an appropriate size drill bit. I would reccomend drilling a smaller hole for each individual tube rather than a big hole for all of them together. The hole should probably be slightly bigger than the tube, and you should plan to put some sealant / padding around the tube where it goes through the floor to avoid problems with sharp edges and to keep your heat or AC where it belongs.

You MAY have a problem with the length of the bit, some floors can be thicker than many standard size bits are long. You can either buy extra long bits, or extensions for certain types of bits. Choosing a bit that can handle hitting a nail is also a good idea.

It is important to measure very carefully to make sure the holes are in the right place, and you should try to avoid hitting any of the joists or rafters holding up the floor. The other thing to watch out for is that the space you are drilling through is free from electrical wiring, gas or water pipes, heating ducts, and other such obstructions. Since most of these will be on the basement side, it is probably best to drill from the basement up, at least initially.

I would probably start by drilling a very small hole (1/8"?) from the basement up, and then stick a coat hanger through the hole to make sure I was in the right place, and was clear of any obstacles. Then I would get my bigger bits and drill down from above to make the finished hole (easier to work with gravity, and avoids getting a face full of sawdust).

Gooserider

[Rayman2k2]

well, actually, there is a living room right under my room, and above the basement...so, i have to send it down two floors...

[Pelayo_Style]

i cant belive your going through all that trouble. but hey , whatever floats your boat. take pictures of the entire process.

[jaydee]

Make sure all your connections are perfect, in fact I would use Copper pipe for the majority of the plumbing. Would suck for something the break loose and soak a wall or two. Have you considered puting a Window AC in the room instead? Probably half the price of that pump and more effiecent.

[Rayman2k2]

Originally posted by Pelayo_Style
i cant belive your going through all that trouble. but hey , whatever floats your boat. take pictures of the entire process.

I want quiet. any questions?

[Rayman2k2]

Originally posted by jaydee116
Make sure all your connections are perfect, in fact I would use Copper pipe for the majority of the plumbing. Would suck for something the break loose and soak a wall or two. Have you considered puting a Window AC in the room instead? Probably half the price of that pump and more effiecent.

I would, but, my room is in the front of the house, and it would look REALLY bad if I were to have one there...

[Rayman2k2]

and my question was never really answered, is it possible to just drop the pipes down w/o making holes or anything?

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Rayman2k2
and my question was never really answered, is it possible to just drop the pipes down w/o making holes or anything?

Nope, you will have to cut a hole in each floor.

[Gooserider]

Rayman2k2: well, actually, there is a living room right under my room, and above the basement...so, i have to send it down two floors...

OUCH! That is not going to be trivial, as I assume that you aren't going to want to drop the pipes through the middle of the living room. This means you will need to go down inside the walls, which is MUCH scarier and difficult, especially if you don't have relevant experience. (I assume you don't or you wouldn't be asking us... ) It might be worth calling a plumber with 'old work' experience for the in wall stuff... I am NOT a pro at this, so don't take the following as gospel, but it may be of use.

To go vertically through a non load bearing wall isn't that big a deal as long as you locate the drilling point properly. A load bearing wall is a bigger problem, as you need to be careful not to weaken the rafters / joists. However in each case, you will need to be very careful about other existing plumbing and wiring. Also most construction puts a 'fireblock' between each pair of studs about 3' from the floor. This all means you will likely need to remove and then repair the wall surface where you are routing the pipes (probably either plaster or sheet rock depending on the age of the house) which will lead to a likely need to refinish the entire wall so the repair won't show. It's doable, but ugly and LOTS of work...

I would suggest looking for an alternative routing. If there is a chimney, vent stack, HVAC return duct, or similiar, there might be gaps between it and the flooring that you could take advantage of. (If you run next to a chimney, I reccomend using Cu pipe for fire safety reasons, check for any code requirements for stuff next to a chimney in any case.) This is another reason to use a pro, they may be able to tell you where to look for minimum hassle routings.

Hope this helps...

Gooserider

[Blackeagle]

Jaydee and gooserider offer good advice. All copper pipe for not only it's strength & rigidness, but for added cooling as well. Although with a full size car rad I guess the extra cooling will be unneeded.

And a pro to plumb it as gooserider said, he'll be needed. And expensive.