[H] WB roundup

[bigben2k]

[edited, removed flames]

This is from Steve:

The last thread was moved to the mods corner after the ProCooling zealots came rushing over and crapping the first thread within 13 minutes of the review posted ( world record, I think )

It is not secret that a year or so ago one of their people was banned from our forums ( he was one of our mods ) there has been resentment and insults from them ever since. They have even taken public pot shots at the [H] in their editorials in the past.

I don't go to ProCooling and crap in their forums because they haven't written a review in 6 months, I don't go to their forums and make fun of their horrible test set up, Or the fact that it took them 8 months to write one waterblock review.

They have a nice little thread going over at ProCooling with all four people that visit their forums talking trash on the [H]. And I don't really care or mind...but they can keep that stuff over there.

He linked to a a cute pic of Joe's ghetto testbench, from back then.

[dantheman]

But nobody said anything was wrong with him, nor were we craping in the forums. We said what was wrong with the review, and what could be done in the future to fix it.

[-Rogue5-]

Originally posted by dantheman
Dont' feal bad, I just got banned too. heh

Heh. I am not really mad (its probably for the best that I got banned), its just the fact that people in there have no idea (sometimes that includes the site owners/operators) and than someone like pHeatus or I get banned. Its annoying...but still not earth shattering, as the whole site is going straight to the crapper (as previously mentioned ; )

peace,
-Rogue5-

[bigben2k]

I just got booted! That was quick...

(I posted a link to this thread, since Steve brought it up)

[pHaestus]

Edit by pH: personal attacks all removed

[bigben2k]

quote:
vBulletin Message
Sorry. The administrator has banned your IP address. To contact the administrator click here


Ok, so is everyone in the office booted, or do I just manually reset my DCHP assigned IP address?

[mkosem]

heh, oddly I'm not banned this time.

I posted:

I can't honestly see how joe's setup is horrible? It has a variable flow rate pump that can provide pressure, obviously more temp monitoring than you bothered to use (since temps are useless unless they are core temps), among other advantages. And who cares about flow rate? HAH! This review clearly displays the type of crap writing that the [h] is known for. On die probe readings taken from the mobo's are known to vary by huge amounts. This is why for some boards bios updates make temp changes in excess of 10C. These incorrect readings indicate poor calibration, which is a clear explanation of the horribly inaccurate temps on the site. And saying the gemini standard flow block was not made for tecs is kinda pointless seeing that neither were most of the other blocks tested. It's also espcially interresting that a 50x50mm pelt was mounted underneath a block that has a width of 50mm including aluminum fins. I also find it interresting that there are no pictures of the test setup whatsoever and a picture of a BIX labeled as a BI Pro.

Here's some advice: Stop posting lame ass reviews on things you have no idea how to review. Your testing methoodology it not only poor, but also quite inacurate.

--Matt

--Matt

[pHaestus]

Hrm. I see some people over at Hardforum asking why water temps matter. I can't address that there, but I have a soapbox here

Let's think about this.

If the water temperature isnt controlled, and performance is published ONLY as CPU temperature, then it is possible for a block with worse performance to be ranked as the top performer. Far better to publish Delta T (Die temp - water temp). The block that can get the CPU temperature closest to the water temp is the best. That seems pretty straightforward.

What is not so straightforward is the interaction between flow rate and performance. Blocks that are more restrictive will affect the performance of the radiator as well. So the water temp is shifting, the room temp is probably shifting, and the flow rate is different in every setup.

That testing is not especially useful then, unless you happen to have EXACTLY that same setup. And even if you do, it doesn't help you get any closer to optimizing said setup.

[Somnophore]

yeah were cool we can go flame other forums wow lets all do that and become lame


and what a snow flake on PRO HAHHA even more lame

it should be Where the completely lame come to talk

[mkosem]

um, actually you flaming here is just as useless(you got brains kid). At least we are posting actual factual info.

--Matt

[pHaestus]

It's true; going to Hardforum and posting flames accomplishes nothing.

I was going to post something about your horrible communication skills Somnophore. Then, I realized how difficult it must be to use proper punctuation and capitalization w/o opposable thumbs.

[mfpmax]

Originally posted by mkosem
um, actually you flaming here is just as useless(you got brains kid). At least we are posting actual factual info.

--Matt

Now you see why I said that thread was pointless?

[HelpImNewbish]

So [H]ard...your momma asks for us by name.

..... How old is "Steve"?

[mkosem]

yes. I'm actually surprised the [h] hasn't started deleting my posts yet(happened before). It just go's to show the kind of knowledge flowing around there.

--Matt

[bigben2k]

I agree pHaestus. The water temps are really needed. I've also stated before that the environmental measurements (temp and humidity) should be posted too, since they are a variable in the test.

There are many rads out there that will give out different results. This roundup didn't do anyone a service, except the BI Pro owners.

[mkosem]

did they even use a BI Pro? The rad pictured is a BIX.

--Matt

[mkosem]

aaw, let's ban people posting pro-accuracy info and delete their posts!

--Matt

[pHaestus]

Guys I just went through my posts and removed any personal attacks. I think it is pretty clear to everyone that there are some personal issues between one of the staff of H|OCP and virtually everyone on the ProCooling staff. No need to resort to public insults, however.

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by mkosem
did they even use a BI Pro? The rad pictured is a BIX.

--Matt

It's got an aluminium fan with no shroud. I can't tell them apart. Maybe someone else can?

[edited, to remove flame]

[pHaestus]

Ya pretty sure the picture is a BIX:

http://www.procooling.com/~phaestus/bixshroud.jpg

[zCereal]

i am from hard ocp and i liked the review

it did what it was meant to do

show you how much you can expect a certain waterblock to cool your processor in a controlled as possible system

does the temp of the water going in and out of my waterblock matter if the temps in hte processor are lower? not even a little bit

the thin about the on die probe
yes they are inaccurate
but the inaccuracy is the same across the board

so it;s 10 degress off at low temps it's gunna be ten degree's off at higher temps

thereby giving you a good idea as to how much one black is better than another

everything else was the same so the waterblock was the only variable

do flowrates matter if the temp is lower? absolutely not as long as the temps are lower

you guys seem to want kyle to find the very best optimization for each set-up and comapre them

which would take months upon months of work for 19 blocks and is infeasible

he did the best he could by limiting all the factors down to just the waterblock

the ambient temps were the same
the rad was the same
same pump
same tubing system

the only variable is the humidity and the waterblock in use

[Dan_Dude]

Ok wow, First off I used to just lurk around these parts but felt compelled to respond to this.

I'm an active HF member and spend a fair amount of time in the O/C forum, although Cool Cases is really my bag. Ironicly that forum is much better and at the same time neither kyle nor steve posts spends any considerable time there (<1 post a month). This latest banfest is just ****ed up. Some of your names are familar and pHaestus in paticular sticks out as being one of the last people I would ban from a forum. Now I don't agree with the assesment that the review was 100% useless. The review did show beyond a shadow of a doubt that certain blocks are better then others. (BTMS for example) Of course beyond that it was too lacking in detail to provide very many meaningful results. But going around gagging anybody who offers criticism, be it constructive or destructive will NOT change the fact that the article was "lacking"

Oh well, At least i know its safe to post conflicting statements without bannage here. I'm not going to touch this argument over on the [H] side.

[gmat]

Before you get flamed to death... Let me tell you this. This review is only good for the guy who made it, with *his* config. And yet there are inaccuracies so i would take the top-7 ranking with a grain of salt...
Any other ppl will have *different* results with those blocks because of a diff. rad, diff. pump, diff tubing and so on. The only way to tell out is to put CPU/Water delta temps, with a true thermal probe or core probe, and test out each combination of flow / tubing / rad.

[pHaestus]

If you can't grasp how water inlet temperatures affect CPU cooling then perhaps an example may help.

In the daytime, it gets up to 24C in my basement. I test a waterblock at this time, and it reports a temperature of 26C for water inlet temp and 40C for CPU die temp.

In the evening, there was a cold snap and the room got down to 22C. I test a second block and learn water temperature was 24C, and the CPU die temp is 39C.

Which block performs better?

39-24 = 15
40-26 = 14

The block with the higher die temperature is actually doing a better job of bringing CPU temp to water temp.

This is not reflected in the review in question, however.

[Dan_Dude]

Not sure who you guys were replying to so let me just clarify that im not defending kyle/steve in any way and I also think that delta T temps are the only way to fly. But you don't need two Cooling mods to tell you that, ask any highschool physics teacher, delta values are all that matter in the grand scheme of things.