[H] WB roundup

[gmat]

(dan): we were replying to zCereal

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by zCereal
i am from hard ocp and i liked the review

it did what it was meant to do

show you how much you can expect a certain waterblock to cool your processor in a controlled as possible system

does the temp of the water going in and out of my waterblock matter if the temps in hte processor are lower? not even a little bit

the thin about the on die probe
yes they are inaccurate
but the inaccuracy is the same across the board

so it;s 10 degress off at low temps it's gunna be ten degree's off at higher temps

thereby giving you a good idea as to how much one black is better than another

everything else was the same so the waterblock was the only variable

do flowrates matter if the temp is lower? absolutely not as long as the temps are lower

First off, welcome to ProCooling.

The problem that we have with the review is multiple.

If you used a different rad, other than the Black Ice Extreme pictured (even though it's labelled as a Black Ice Pro), you may not get the same results, and in fact, if you did a roundup with it, you might come out with the blocks in a different order.

The temp probe was misquoted. If it was an in-socket probe (which it wasn't), then it would be fair to expect a ten degree difference from real temps. The problem is that it may not be so linear an offset as you think: pHaestus will be able to confirm this.

The innacuracy of the die probe itself, falls within a certain range. That means that from one day to the next, you might read a 3 degree difference, but the real temp would actually be the same. Now look back at the chart, and see how many blocks fall within that 3 degree margin of error.

Flowrates always matter.

this roundup should have been able to tell us if, by increasing the flow rate, we can extract a bit more performance out of a block. It doesn't.

The pump used, an Eheim 1250 is nice, but there are many, many other pumps out there that are not only cheaper, but will perform much, much better. I personally use a Little Giant 2-MDQ-SC. If you look [H]ard enough, you'll find it for less than the price of a 1250.

[zCereal]

it stated in the review that the room temp was at 75 farhrenhiet at all times

so that point should be invalidated

and you got banned cause you were personally attacking the owners of the site
if you wanna criticize be constructive like i was in my above post

don't flame and be an asshat

and on the better performing blocks the water temp will be higher as they are removing more heat from the processor than other blocks. waterblocks are made to transfer heat from the CPU to teh water so if the transfer gets more efficent and the cooling (rad) doesn't then water temps will rise a bit.

[pHaestus]

was replying to zcereal.

Thanks for your kind words Dan_Dude regarding my posts on H|F. On ALL forums I try to be of use.

Do you post at Pheaton.com forums? I have found a lot of the same people from H|F case and cooling without all the noise.

[pHaestus]

I made no personal attack on the owner of the site. That would be Kyle and not Steve, btw.

Flow rates affect the heat dissipation of the radiator. This will raise water temps in instances of restrictive waterblocks even if the room temperature is the same. Hence my original comment that Steve (inadvertantly) tested the flow resistance of the blocks and nothing more.

Care to try again? Not familiar with the term asshat. Did that arise from the same place that thinks thermodynamics and cooling shouldn't mix?

[Dan_Dude]

I head over there every time colddog has a new work log but thats it , I'll have to check it out.

[zCereal]

Originally posted by bigben2k
First off, welcome to ProCooling.

The problem that we have with the review is multiple.

If you used a different rad, other than the Black Ice Extreme pictured (even though it's labelled as a Black Ice Pro), you may not get the same results, and in fact, if you did a roundup with it, you might come out with the blocks in a different order.

The temp probe was misquoted. If it was an in-socket probe (which it wasn't), then it would be fair to expect a ten degree difference from real temps. The problem is that it may not be so linear an offset as you think: pHaestus will be able to confirm this.

The innacuracy of the die probe itself, falls within a certain range. That means that from one day to the next, you might read a 3 degree difference, but the real temp would actually be the same. Now look back at the chart, and see how many blocks fall within that 3 degree margin of error.

Flowrates always matter.

this roundup should have been able to tell us if, by increasing the flow rate, we can extract a bit more performance out of a block. It doesn't.

The pump used, an Eheim 1250 is nice, but there are many, many other pumps out there that are not only cheaper, but will perform much, much better. I personally use a Little Giant 2-MDQ-SC. If you look [H]ard enough, you'll find it for less than the price of a 1250.

ok well i am not too sure about the probe being off 2 - 3 degrees from day to day
do you have any data to back this up that i could see?

this was a round-up of all the blocks
if you wanted to know if improving flow rates will improve temps then a round-up is not something you want to read. you would want to read a tweaking guide based on watercooling or something along those lines


and i use a danner magdrive 250 in my watercooling set-up

[zCereal]

Originally posted by pHaestus
I made no personal attack on the owner of the site. That would be Kyle and not Steve, btw.

Flow rates affect the heat dissipation of the radiator. This will raise water temps in instances of restrictive waterblocks even if the room temperature is the same. Hence my original comment that Steve (inadvertantly) tested the flow resistance of the blocks and nothing more.

Care to try again? Not familiar with the term asshat. Did that arise from the same place that thinks thermodynamics and cooling shouldn't mix?

testing the flow resistance of the black is also valid

flow restrictiveness can affect the performance of a black

if hte block is poorly designed for flow rates then it will obviously perform worse than those designed to allow high flow rates

and asshat is a [H] term methinks

[pHaestus]

Or you would test blocks as a function of flow rate possibly. Here is some testing done by Bill Adams:



A somewhat interactive graph; pick the flow rate your system is geared for and choose block accordingly. Hint: the Eheim 1250 will NOT be on the right of the graph.

[mkosem]

well, some blocks perform well with low flow, others with high. it's still not a very good comparison anyways because we have no idea what kinds of other restrictions he had on the lines nor do we have any kind of indication of flow at all.

--Matt

[mkosem]

nicely stated pH

--Matt

[spinky]

well..i lurk in [H]|F a lot.. just came here cause of the thread @ OC & Cooling..

first off i must say the review isn't so complete.. i'm getting my maze 3 soon..my Black Ice Pro Evo (in coolmetal blue! w00t!) arond next week..

and i was wondering what tubing was used in the tests (size..) and they didn't even mention that part..

i dont really know what happened until so many of you got banned.. but it would be bad if they banned you just cause you say the review isn't good or up to par in a polite manner (if you go in shouting "THE REVIEW SUCKS" then i think i know why you got banned.. else i dont think you deserved to get banned..and sarcasm and personal attacks will get you banned as well)

i do love [H]|F because there's a lot of guys who knows his stuff that hangs around there...

anyhow do try and understand that hardocp is catering to -not only- extreme watercooling enthusiasts... they cater to everybody in the hardware - computing - ocing scene.. since they dont look into watercooling so in depht like you guys do...

still..mentioning the tubing used really does makes a big diffrence..and its just a small portion.. u just gotta say what tubing you used..and it was overlooked.

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by zCereal
ok well i am not too sure about the probe being off 2 - 3 degrees from day to day
do you have any data to back this up that i could see?

this was a round-up of all the blocks
if you wanted to know if improving flow rates will improve temps then a round-up is not something you want to read. you would want to read a tweaking guide based on watercooling or something along those lines


and i use a danner magdrive 250 in my watercooling set-up

The CPU diode accuracy depends on two things: the diode itself, and the chip that reads it. It will have an error margin of one deg C, at the very least.

Flow restriction is an important factor, and should have been included in the roundup. BillA would be ashamed to see this (I suspect he's reading from a distance, laughing at us all). As he pointed out so often, some blocks are extremely restrictive at higher flow rates, which makes them a bad choice. Also, some block designs do not offer much more performance with a higher flow rate, some do. Where's that data?

A lot of people pick a block based on the barb sizes (not terribly accurate, but a requirement). Where's that data?

Air flow rate through the rad is also critical, especially at higher flow rates. Where's that data?

There are many, many other blocks out there. Excluding the Innovatech was a no-no, as it is a top performing block.


Like I said before, kudos to Steve for rounding up 19 blocks... but all we got is that the BTMS is bad, and a long list for us all to go surf the net with.

[mkosem]

the problem is no one was really making personal attacks or saying "THE REVIEW SUCKS." We were merely pointing out it's flaws.

--Matt

[zCereal]

Originally posted by pHaestus
Or you would test blocks as a function of flow rate possibly. Here is some testing done by Bill Adams:


A somewhat interactive graph; pick the flow rate your system is geared for and choose block accordingly. Hint: the Eheim 1250 will NOT be on the right of the graph.

interesting data

but how would you incorporate that into a round-up?

it's simply unfeasible.

this takes a middle grade pump (300 GPH is what most people use in htere systems) and compares the waterblocks

the review was meant to show you a mid - high end watercooling rig and which blocks performed best.

tailoring the blocks to your particular flowrate is unfeasible because your waterblock is one of the things that greatly affects flowrates (along with the rad)

what you guys want is just unfeasible

[spinky]

Originally posted by mkosem
the problem is no one was really making personal attacks or saying "THE REVIEW SUCKS." We were merely pointing out it's flaws.

--Matt

then HONESTLY, if what you state was true, i personally think you guys don't deserve to get banned.

but do understand there's a diffrence between

choice 1 "your review had a lot of flaws and its not that good"

and

choice 2 "the review was not bad, but i think the it lacked more in-depth data and certain criterias were overlooked"

altho its referreing to the same matter, it does give the admin (in this case kyle or steve) a very diffrent effect.. if you said choice 1 then maybe their thinking your shitting on their review or something.. but if you said something like choice 2..then i don't think the ban was fair nor necessary

[zCereal]

Originally posted by bigben2k
The CPU diode accuracy depends on two things: the diode itself, and the chip that reads it. It will have an error margin of one deg C, at the very least.

Flow restriction is an important factor, and should have been included in the roundup. BillA would be ashamed to see this (I suspect he's reading from a distance, laughing at us all). As he pointed out so often, some blocks are extremely restrictive at higher flow rates, which makes them a bad choice. Also, some block designs do not offer much more performance with a higher flow rate, some do. Where's that data?

A lot of people pick a block based on the barb sizes (not terribly accurate, but a requirement). Where's that data?

Air flow rate through the rad is also critical, especially at higher flow rates. Where's that data?

There are many, many other blocks out there. Excluding the Innovatech was a no-no, as it is a top performing block.


Like I said before, kudos to Steve for rounding up 19 blocks... but all we got is that the BTMS is bad, and a long list for us all to go surf the net with.

so basically you jsut want the specifics from the set-up
like the fan CFM and the bard size which were the same and therfore eliminated

waht steve did was use the scientific process to lower the variables down to 1 - the waterblock

flow restriction was taken into account as waterblocks that restricted flow more performed worse than those that did not

of course flow rates matter, but flowrates are dictated by the pump (kept the same) rad (kept the same) and the waterblock (the variable) so blocks with better designs performed better than those with worse designs who restricted flow

[Dan_Dude]

Originally posted by spinky
well..i lurk in [H]|F a lot.. just came here cause of the thread @ OC & Cooling..

first off i must say the review isn't so complete.. i'm getting my maze 3 soon..my Black Ice Pro Evo (in coolmetal blue! w00t!) arond next week..

and i was wondering what tubing was used in the tests (size..) and they didn't even mention that part..

i dont really know what happened until so many of you got banned.. but it would be bad if they banned you just cause you say the review isn't good or up to par in a polite manner (if you go in shouting "THE REVIEW SUCKS" then i think i know why you got banned.. else i dont think you deserved to get banned..and sarcasm and personal attacks will get you banned as well)

i do love [H]|F because there's a lot of guys who knows his stuff that hangs around there...

anyhow do try and understand that hardocp is catering to -not only- extreme watercooling enthusiasts... they cater to everybody in the hardware - computing - ocing scene.. since they dont look into watercooling so in depht like you guys do...

still..mentioning the tubing used really does makes a big diffrence..and its just a small portion.. u just gotta say what tubing you used..and it was overlooked.

That about sums up my feelings on this whole saga, but even if they were shouting "the review sucks" they didn't just register to do that, they are helpful and contributing members so I think some thread locking and warnings would have been a much better solution.

[gmat]

Originally posted by zCereal
so blocks with better designs performed better than those with worse designs who restricted flow

Thats true, but only useful to *Steve*.. Everyone else reading the review has a *different* setup and will get different results... Because what he showed was ABSOLUTE results and not RELATIVE results. There goes the "scientific methodology"...

[clone]

keepsing all that stuff the same doesnt help the blocks at all the point of the round up is to show the delta between block and watertemp if you keep all this the same then i block that runs good on the setup will run good but a block on a diffrent setup that also runs good will not run good on the prev setup the point of the round up is to show what is max atanible for the block you can not do that if you dont change any thing kind of like the goviner in a car it stops you at 139.9 yet if removed the car can go faster useing the same setup for every block you may be bottle necking the block in some fassion

[zCereal]

Originally posted by gmat
Thats true, but only useful to *Steve*.. Everyone else reading the review has a *different* setup and will get different results... Because what he showed was ABSOLUTE results and not RELATIVE results. There goes the "scientific methodology"...

so your suggesting he sets-up a ton of different set-ups and tests each of hte 19 blocks on each set-up?

it's unfeasible

the best he can do is give an absolute result

the review is not a be all end all of reviews

but it was certiainly very informative and the results very valid and useable

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by zCereal
so basically you jsut want the specifics from the set-up
like the fan CFM and the bard size which were the same and therfore eliminated

waht steve did was use the scientific process to lower the variables down to 1 - the waterblock

flow restriction was taken into account as waterblocks that restricted flow more performed worse than those that did not

of course flow rates matter, but flowrates are dictated by the pump (kept the same) rad (kept the same) and the waterblock (the variable) so blocks with better designs performed better than those with worse designs who restricted flow

Flowrate does matter, and it was certainly not eliminated as a factor, that's the whole point! Flow rates are dictated by the pump, but are not kept the same.

The specifics for the setup was a requirement. All I saw was an unshrouded mislabelled pic of a BIX (and a bunch of other things that we've all seen). That alone tells me that he wasn't up to speed on a few things, and that goes to the credibility of the entire article.

Flow restriction alone, cannot be equated with performance. Cathar's block is very restrictive, but it will beat all of those blocks. Volenti has a similar design, but less restrictive.

[clone]

yes i am saying just that that to test the block each one must be setup for it optimum setup it is not has hard or a task as you think nor as such as a long task hell i could do it if the rents would let me but they dont like the fact that i play around any way

http://24.218.60.52/pics/computers

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by zCereal
so your suggesting he sets-up a ton of different set-ups and tests each of hte 19 blocks on each set-up?

it's unfeasible

the best he can do is give an absolute result

the review is not a be all end all of reviews

but it was certiainly very informative and the results very valid and useable

It is feasible. We never said it was easy.

The results (load, no tec) show the first half of all waterblocks to be within 4 deg C of each other. What was the error margin of the tests?

[zCereal]

if you think you can do better than by all means contact steve and see if he will let you borrow his waterblocks

if you present him with a good plan and are nice and offer to pay the shipping he might let you borrow them for your testing

my rig pics: www.jerom.com/romie/case if you wanna see em (the inside components are different now but the case and watercooling is the same. it's not the best set-up in the world (it predates spiral blocks) but it works for cooling my p4 more than well enough